#4 Healthy Habits for Kids: Lessons from Canada with Ruby Marshall... and Mental Models

In this episode, Tenille speaks with Ruby Marshall, the Live 5210 coordinator at the University of British Columbia. Ruby shares her journey in health promotion, from her roots in Australia to her current role in Canada, where she collaborates with communities to promote healthy habits in children. They explore concepts essential to systems thinking, like leverage points and feedback loops, and Ruby offers insights into the challenges of cross-sector collaboration in health promotion. She discusses the 5210 initiative, which encourages children to enjoy 5 servings of fruits and veggies, limit recreational screen time to 2 hours, get 1 hour of physical activity, and avoid sugary drinks. Ruby explains how mental models and community champions play a crucial role in sustaining long-term change in complex health systems. Matt wraps up with a discussion on mental models, emphasizing the importance of making assumptions explicit in systems change work; and ideas on how to do so.

Learn more about Live5210 from their website: https://live5210.ca/pages/home.

For more about us and what we do check out our LinkedIn page.

Transcript

 Matt Healey: [00:00:00] The Systems Sandbox is recorded and produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to Elders past, present, and extend our respects to all First Nations people listening. 

Matt Healey: Welcome to the Systems Sandbox, where we chat all things systems and complexity. My name's Matt Healey, and with me is Tenille Moslin. 

Matt Healey: Welcome back to another episode of the system sandbox. Uh, Tenille got up bright and early to speak with Ruby Marshall, who's the live 5210 coordinator at the university of British Columbia in Canada. Uh, and they got into some really interesting discussions on a couple of things that, you know, uh, are. 

Matt Healey: Perhaps quite obvious systems, uh, complex problems, all of those sorts of things. Um, but there was a couple of concepts, um, that I really want to highlight and, um, maybe plant the seed for you to, to pick up on in [00:01:00] that conversation. Um, and one of those that I think is really, really important when we're thinking about systems work is this idea of leverage points. 

Matt Healey: So leverage points for those of you that aren't familiar, uh, is kind of the term that's used for this idea that you can identify a particular spot or point in a system, uh, and if you kind of focus your efforts, uh, or intervene in that particular place, uh, it will kind of have this bigger flow on effect or ripple effect across that sort of complex system. 

Matt Healey: Uh, so it's a very common idea in systems practice or systems based work that if you identify those, you can kind of have almost a, a bigger return for your effort, um, or a more influential return. Outcome as a result, uh, so they'll be touching on those ideas, uh, a little bit. And the other one that I wanted to just, uh, signpost for everyone as well is this idea of feedback loops. 

Matt Healey: I think feedback loops are kind of an interesting concept to think about in, in different situations. Um, but again, just to make sure that you've got a bit of a sense of [00:02:00] what, what we're actually getting at there. Uh, I find it always helpful to use examples for talking about these sorts of things. Thanks. 

Matt Healey: I mean, in its simplest, a feedback loop is essentially a set of relationships that are in a cycle or are feeding into each other, and there's kind of no sort of end point. So it doesn't matter at which point in that loop or that cycle that you start, uh, it kind of kicks off, uh, uh, transfers, relationships, uh, interactions, um, but feedback in on each other, probably the simplest one. 

Matt Healey: Uh, that I can give you that comes from a, an ecological background or perspective is the idea of foxes and rabbits. So if you think of something like a situation where you have lots of rabbits, that will typically mean that you'll have foxes who come along because there's a greater food supply. Okay. Uh, and as more foxes come into an area, there will be fewer rabbits, but if there are fewer rabbits, then there's less food, so then there'll be fewer foxes, but if there's fewer foxes, that can lead to more rabbits, and if there's more rabbits, then you can have more foxes. 

Matt Healey: And you can kind of see what I'm getting at [00:03:00] here with this idea that there's a loop, uh, of interactions that, you know, effectively would not stop until there's some other external influence or some other unexpected factor that kind of Uh, comes in and intervenes in some way, could be other predators or other prey, uh, could be, you know, a bushfire, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. 

Matt Healey: So those are just a few of the ideas that I wanted to signpost up front before, um, Tenille and Ruby get into their conversation. But then after that's finished up, I'm going to come back to you. And I want to talk to you about something that I've been thinking a lot about recently, uh, which is the role of mental models. 

Matt Healey: And, um, I think it's really important that we start to delve into some of these, you know, maybe concepts or ideas that are talked about a lot, or you've seen a lot of frameworks, uh, and maybe just delve a bit more into them. Um, And try to try to understand them a bit more enjoy the conversation between Tenille and Ruby Uh, and I'll come back to you soon 

Tenille Moselen: Hi, Ruby welcome to the System Sandbox. 

Tenille Moselen: It's great to have you here I haven't seen [00:04:00] Ruby face to face in a couple of years because she has moved overseas but we used to travel to study together here at the Gold Coast many years ago, and we are also great friends. Um, but she works in the health promotion sector, and we got her on today as a guest to have a chat to you about the current work that she's doing, but I thought, uh, maybe if you want to kick off Ruby and just tell us how you went from, um, working in Australia to working overseas and all the little, um, stepping stones and health promotion projects and things you've worked on in between. 

Ruby Marshall: Thanks, Tenille. It's lovely to be here and thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I grew up in Tassie, uh, and then I moved to the Gold Coast to study my Bachelor of Health Promotion. So, I did that for three years before I moved here. Like many students, I suppose, jumping straight into a master's because I didn't know what I wanted to do, um, and whilst I was doing my master's in public health, I also worked, um, part time at a [00:05:00] university and moved down to Victoria where I mainly focused and taught health promotion subjects and health promotion of physical activity, so something that I'm really passionate about both Um, and also doing my master's I also did a research component, which was to look at the experiences of health promotion workers who work in the space of preventing family violence. 

Ruby Marshall: So not necessarily those that are. That our frontline workers do what working directly with, uh, women and families affected, but really that step behind, um, as at the time there was a lot of priority on the health promotion and the prevention at that next level back of family violence and changing social norms. 

Ruby Marshall: So I thought that was a really interesting research topic to pursue. And I met a lot of health promotion workers in Victoria. Uh, when I was doing that interview process with them and shortly after completing my master's, I worked in community health for a couple of [00:06:00] years, uh, in the bow and Southwest region of Victoria, near Geelong. 

Ruby Marshall: And my priorities there were physical activity promotion and the promotion of physical activity for women and girls. So, as I mentioned, something I'm really passionate about, I feel like physical activity promotion is something or physical activity is something, sorry, that everybody has access to, whether that's. 

Ruby Marshall: Be walking or rolling. And obviously that's dependent on, um, of course, some disabilities that restrict movement, but I really enjoy that aspect of health promotion. And I guess that's why I fell into that. Um, and I also worked on the this girl can campaign as well in Victoria, which I absolutely loved. 

Ruby Marshall: And after that, I moved back into a role at Deakin University at the food and mood center as well. So I got more into the healthy eating side of things. Thanks. Um, and then, yeah, it was fortunate enough, very fortunate enough to move to Vancouver here in British Columbia in 2021 and a slot straight into the Live 5 2 [00:07:00] 1 0 team, where I am more focused now on children's health and healthy eating. 

Ruby Marshall: So I've been here just over three years and I am the project coordinator on the team. So I mainly work on the project side of our. Initiative, and we also have a research coordinator who works more on the evaluation side. Uh, but I'm doing a lot of the work on the ground with our partners in different sectors, um, and also some work, uh, here at the hospital where we're based. 

Ruby Marshall: So we're based at BC Children's Hospital, uh, and my team are all University of British Columbia staff as well. 

Tenille Moselen: So for everyone out there that doesn't know, Ruby and I did go to uni together and we did study public health on the Gold Coast together. And then she did leave me to go live in Vancouver, but it sounds amazing. 

Tenille Moselen: And she always sends me videos and photos of her and her family climbing mountains in the summer and the winter. And I'm very envious. Um, but I actually don't think I've ever asked you in detail before, Ruby, like most good friendships. What is the Live [00:08:00] 5210 project and what's it aimed to do? 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, something that I didn't know before I joined the team either, but quite easy to understand once you know the concept. 

Ruby Marshall: So as I mentioned, we're based here at the Children's Hospital, uh, which is one of the biggest children's hospitals here in Canada. So that really gives us a bit of a background and, um, authority, I suppose, um, when we're working with communities. So our, um, initiative is, uh, specific here to British Columbia, although people all over the world. 

Ruby Marshall: Download our resources and tools. We created the initiative almost 15 years ago where our team did, and it's based around the 0 guidelines, which are evidence based or just run through those. So it is to enjoy five or more fruits and vegetables, two hours of less of screen time, and that is recreational. 

Ruby Marshall: So that is outside things like schoolwork, homework, maybe FaceTiming. Uh, relatives and things like that. It's all around the screen use, um, that is like video games, social media, TV, and those types of things, [00:09:00] things. And then the one is for one hour or more of physical activity. And again, aiming for that moderate to vigorous activity for children and zero sugary drinks. 

Ruby Marshall: And this message specifically, um, is, uh, specific to British Columbia because we added the live in front of it. But it's also a message that is used in other places around the world. Most specifically, I think in some States in America. So our primary audience is for children aged five to 12. Well, that's where our message is targeted towards, but really our, Uh, primary audience is sectors and partners who work towards, um, preventing chronic diseases in children or promoting health behaviors. 

Ruby Marshall: So, primarily, we want our message and our resources to be shared by those partners and then secondary is families. It was an initiative that was started to, as a prevention research project initially to prevent chronic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, [00:10:00] which were starting to become, or risk factors were starting to become more prominent for children. 

Ruby Marshall: It was initially around sort of weights, but we rarely use those terminologies like obesity and healthy weights anymore, and we've really shifted towards the language like health behaviors or healthy habits for children. Our work, or our initiative, is community led, so we work with different sectors or systems. 

Ruby Marshall: Um, across, uh, the province here or the state, so that might be healthcare workers or hospitals, schools, uh, recreational centers, which are a little bit unique to, uh, at least here in Canada. I think they are centers in a community that provides physical activity or connectedness, um, programs for children and early years and things like that. 

Ruby Marshall: Uh, we also work with local government, some businesses, and even to some extent, the media. Um, and our initiative and our direction and our strategic plans are really based from feedback from the community of what they would like to work on, um, or even to some extent, some of the systems [00:11:00] in their community, which may be broken. 

Ruby Marshall: So we really work with partners, but not necessarily to do the work, but to mainly advise and provide resources or tools that might benefit to them. Might benefit community numbers. So essentially we're providing a bit of a, uh, a framework, um, that each community can use, and we know that each community will be different because like all communities, um, across the world, everyone is unique and local knowledge and leadership is really key. 

Ruby Marshall: In terms of how we measure our reach, we obviously use, um, statistics, um, from our website and social media to see how we're reaching, um, but we're really looking to sort of measure more, uh, uh, impact and outcome based measures as well, which can be a little bit hard in health promotion because they're often long term things that take 10 years, or it's very hard to see, you know, how many kids in that specific area increase their physical activity. 

Tenille Moselen: That's so interesting. I always knew the five to one I had [00:12:00] to do with fruit and vegetable or something like that, but that makes so much sense now. And I think it's so modern and up to date to include things like social media, um, as well, and thinking about sedentary activity when you're using social media and all that other stuff as well. 

Tenille Moselen: Um, so you, you mentioned you work a lot with partners. Um, and I guess something that's really interesting for our listeners, um, and to kind of dive into today is what are some of the challenges that you face, um, when you are trying to implement, you know, these greater systemic changes across the different sectors. 

Tenille Moselen: And you mentioned, um, working with government and non government and, um, you know, I would assume maybe you work with health and education and different types of organizations and something like that. We. See often as a barrier is that, uh, different organizations don't want to work beyond their boundaries or their remit because, um, that's beyond the scope of what they do [00:13:00] in their day to day. 

Tenille Moselen: And they can be a bit resistant to that change or taking on those, um, you know, greater challenges or different types of roles. 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. Like many health promotion workers out there, we always come up against a lot of challenges and something I maybe should have mentioned around our overall message is the aim is to work with all these different settings, like you mentioned, government schools, et cetera, so that children are going about their day and seeing the same message over and over again. 

Ruby Marshall: So they might see that at home when they wake up, um, they might have a poster in there on their fridge or something like that. They might see it on their way to school, uh, on Through advertising, they might learn about it at school, they might go home, um, and go to a sport session, which is still teaching the same message. 

Ruby Marshall: So we want it to really be across all these sectors to make sure they're all on board and kids are seeing that consistent message. Um, and one of the hardest things, or one of the challenges we face is when a sector doesn't necessarily Um, and they might not necessarily want to work on a particular [00:14:00] guideline, so they might be really on board, as you say, to work on things like screen time, because it's a bit of a buzz topic at the moment, but they might not necessarily be in line with, um, our message around healthy eating, for example, and a good example of that is our work that we have done and will continue to do with schools, um, and how health promotion messaging can change, and you and I probably grew up in the same, or did grow up in the same era. 

Ruby Marshall: Where we learned about, you know, it's important to have five vegetables and two fruits every day. So essentially we're providing that same sort of message, um, slightly differently, encouraging at least five fruits and vegetables combined. Um, but we see schools, uh, and other sectors as well, really taking a different approach away from that numbering. 

Ruby Marshall: And I guess that comes back to other numbers as well. Like we're not focusing so much on weight anymore. We're not focusing on the amount of fruits and vegetables. Uh, we're just focusing on overall, how can we shift towards more healthier behaviors? So we see more [00:15:00] often than not, and I'm not sure if it's the same in Australia, but it would certainly be interesting to know is that schools are moving away from numbers, I suppose, and they're teaching food in a way that's quite neutral. 

Ruby Marshall: So they're introducing a carrot and a cupcake with no emotional ties or no negative or positive connotations with that food. So as we see that shift, um, Um, and then not necessarily wanting to work specifically on our five, which is the vegetables and fruit and the zero, which is zero sugary drinks, uh, we're sort of leaning towards that. 

Ruby Marshall: It's like, okay, you don't want to work on that. Can we work on some of our other health messaging? Um, and, and how can we still promote healthy eating in a way that is free from judgment? So we're really taking the onus off. Children to meet these health behaviors and to an extent families as well, um, because there's one thing to teach kids about it and put all the pressure on them to want to learn, um, to have to go home and implement this in their own household. 

Ruby Marshall: So we're taking away. [00:16:00] That message it's non, non, non judgmental, non shaming, um, and we're seeing how families can be healthier within the systems that we create. So if that means shifting our messaging to instead promote things like frozen can be a great alternative or eat in season because it's healthier than we're certainly doing that, um, and maybe shifting our focus. 

Ruby Marshall: Away from messaging and looking at interventions as well. So we have some cooking programs that are running around the province that our community partners have implemented where the focus is on incorporating fruits and vegetables. So families can be confident in knowing that the kids have had a great healthy meal at school or after school care program. 

Ruby Marshall: Um, we can still certainly work with schools around healthy eating and things like vending machines and soft drinks or, um, Policies in schools around healthy fundraising or school, school gardens and that type of thing. So we really are moving with the rhetoric that [00:17:00] is popular at the moment. Um, and I think that's a way of being iterative and also keeping up to date with what your partners want. 

Ruby Marshall: So my sort of advice or message would be, if you come up with. with a challenge and a partner or a business doesn't want to work on that, then see what they do want to work on. Because chances are, if you do get in there and you're working on screen time and physical activity, there is some change that you can still make in healthy eating. 

Tenille Moselen: It's kind of the definition of cross sectorial collaboration, isn't it? You, you have to collaborate and you have to meet people where they're ready to meet you, especially when it's a new partnership. Um, so yeah, fantastic advice. We'll be putting that one in our pocket as well. In a lot of systems work, um, we often think of this idea of leverage points or finding out these spots in a really complex system, um, that we can intervene or focus our effort. 

Tenille Moselen: And I think it can often be a sticking point for a lot of people because it's difficult [00:18:00] sometimes to know where to start, um, um, In these really big systems or to understand which one we should focus on. And, uh, for your project, Live 5210, uh, how did the process work for you? So where did, where did you start looking or how did you choose what you were going to focus on or where your intervention spot was going to be in this really, really wide. 

Tenille Moselen: system. And I do know, um, sometimes this can be driven by things like grants and stuff. So I guess we're interested in understanding how did you explore these leverage points? 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, that's a really good point around leverage points. And I guess I can really, um, speak to what we've done in the past, uh, few years since I've been on the team and in terms of how we Engage a new system or a new sector and we really look for and I guess the biggest piece of advice that I found really helpful in health promotion is to find a champion of change or a local community champion. 

Ruby Marshall: And that's where we really try and infiltrate. In, um, because [00:19:00] they have the best local knowledge. So yeah, we've definitely found in the past, if a community reaches out to us, or we reach out to a community, we're looking to someone who might be a champion of change. They don't necessarily have to be in a really high power position or, um, an academic or a school teacher or anything like that. 

Ruby Marshall: They do have to be someone who is passionate about the issue. So for example, we have community members. Um, or partners that we work with. Sorry. They're employees of a certain business or sector. Um, and they might oversee a recreational center and they ensure that all of our messaging is incorporated into every single one of our summer camps or vacation care programs. 

Ruby Marshall: And they're integrating that message. Into that system, I suppose. And it's very sustainable in the sense that as long as they're in their role and maybe they pass it on to future employees as well, that our message will always get integrated into these programs where kids are regular visitors of, so whether that be like a [00:20:00] sporting club, um, as another example, um, Or any after school care program or within a school, it might be a school nurse. 

Ruby Marshall: Um, it might be a health care provider in a setting such as a G. P. clinic. Um, so there's someone within that system who can really champion change for you because, uh, as health promotion workers, we don't necessarily have the local knowledge as I've already mentioned that we don't always have the capacity to be learning around, learning about that community or And another example of when I was working in Victoria is finding local champions within, say, a sporting club, for example. 

Ruby Marshall: So when I was working in Victoria, I worked on the This Girl Can campaign, which I'm sure a lot of your listeners will be very familiar with. And it was around finding a local woman in that community who could really, um, make a change within their individual sporting club. And the more people who did that within a community, um, The more likely you are to see results and see once, once you've, um, engaged with them, [00:21:00] maybe you can engage with other champions, um, within that community. 

Ruby Marshall: So, I guess that's a little bit of an easy way or a little bit of a tip, um, but I really encourage people to, to meet with, um, their local community members or, uh, employees of organizations who can make changes and tell you where in the system, what in the system is broken, um, and the best approach for that as well. 

Tenille Moselen: Chairhands of Change is definitely a well used um, method I suppose in a lot of health promotion projects. And we always see really great outcomes from it as well in all the evaluation work that we do. It'd be interesting to know. Uh, do you use any kind of feedback loops with, um, your chambers of change or through other types of mechanisms to help adapt your strategies or the way that you are delivering the project? 

Tenille Moselen: Um, you know, that's something, I guess, that's probably a personal interest to me in terms of working in evaluation. So is there any [00:22:00] other, um, links as well back to evaluation and things that you use your, um, community or behavioral data, uh, to inform? Changes or outcomes at all. 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, that's really interesting. 

Ruby Marshall: And I actually was speaking with my manager who has a background in research and evaluation before we hit record. And I said, how do we, um, get these, these loops, um, and what type of, what would that look like, um, to get this started back? And I think it goes back to what I was saying before around the long term change that health promotion can take, or how long health promotion can take. 

Ruby Marshall: Can take to make a difference at a community level. So that type of data is not as beneficial to us because we are looking at more longer term, uh, systemic changes. So we really, uh, identify our main feedback loop and it is evaluation and research in a way, um, is we talk to our community partners or we might serve a local community members who run a certain summer camp or afterschool care program to see like what works with. 

Ruby Marshall: Uh, implementing with 0 in your [00:23:00] community and what doesn't or what resources can we create to make it more beneficial for you or more easier for you to integrate our message into your programming and. That's mainly done through qualitative interviewing and responses, and in a way it's sometimes done with do you agree, disagree with how easy or hard it was to implement our message. 

Ruby Marshall: And one of the ones that is a good example for now, and I guess I've already touched on that, but is the issue with screen time. Um, and it's funny how health promotion sort of cycles through what's important. And we're really seeing that from a lot of community members now. So, uh, one of the main things I've been working on at the moment is developing and implementing more screen time resources for our partners to use. 

Ruby Marshall: So I. I think I mentioned it at the start, but we have resources available for community members. So it's really easy for them. If they want to implement a screen free challenge or a screen free week, they can go to our website and download [00:24:00] those for free. So a lot of my work is developing those resources and, um, Yeah, I guess lately, um, the big issue has been screen time. 

Ruby Marshall: So I've been developing these promotional materials. I've been working and implementing these with our partners to see what works well. So one, a great example is a digital literacy resource that we've just developed for families and also for teachers. So we're working with teachers and educators and librarians to see you in the next video. 

Ruby Marshall: Make sure that the content we develop is relevant for them and in a way that they can easily make it teachable to their classes, because I guess a lot of the problem is if you make these resources for your community and they don't like real mods, they don't think they're useful, then they won't use them. 

Ruby Marshall: So it's really important to engage some of these strategies and feedback groups to make sure they are relevant to your audience. Um, so yeah, we've really, uh, grown and, um, Learn a lot more about screen time and [00:25:00] recreational screen time ourselves and implementing these resources based on feedback. And I think another feedback, uh, that we've been getting or that we've been seeing over the past few years is really how healthcare providers versus health promotion has had this real split, I suppose, um, maybe 10, 20 years ago, the main focus of health promotion workers was to lower obesity rates. 

Ruby Marshall: And we've really shifted away from that or certainly here in Canada and in our initiative, and we're focusing more on health behaviours, but we still see the health. Um, healthcare provider or healthcare, um, system really focusing still on things like BMI and weight to measure health. And I think that's particularly interesting, especially over here in the Northern Hemisphere, as the U. 

Ruby Marshall: S. has just announced, I think, a year or so ago that they have licensed weight loss drugs for children. So we're definitely seeing. [00:26:00] The healthcare system move more towards that way and health promotion sector move further away. So it's certainly going to be interesting to see. There's a statement from the Canadian Pediatric Society, or one of those big government organizations here to see whether Canada will follow suit. 

Ruby Marshall: Um, and that will just be interesting working with the healthcare sector as they still continue to use some of that language. So working with that system, if they're still going to use that type of approach, how can we still implement our initiative within that system and and make it relevant for them as well? 

Ruby Marshall: So, a lot of the work here is making sure our resources are relevant for both healthcare providers and the community and community organizations to use as well. 

Tenille Moselen: Yeah, it sounds like you definitely use your feedback loops to adapt resources and update them and often that can be a really time consuming, um, and you know, significant effort type of role as well to go through and update, um, a lot [00:27:00] of resources. 

Tenille Moselen: It can also be really costly, but, uh, it demonstrates, I guess, your commitment to those feedback loops. Um, So you kind of mentioned how there's a bit of change happening in the systems and touched on that, I guess, and you touched on how, um, uh, health practitioners and health promotion is a bit more siloed now, I guess. 

Tenille Moselen: Um, you know, closing out, do you have any, I guess, final comments or thoughts around specifically, um, systems thinking and what it means to apply it to your work and any, I guess, future, uh, challenges or opportunities you see that might come about from these changes, um, in the system that are forthcoming? 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, it's really interesting to think about the future and how we can make our work long lasting. And I think when we think about systems thinking. Is a great opportunity to, to create these changes in the system [00:28:00] and to implement them long term is to make sure they're sustainable or to make sure they're permanent. 

Ruby Marshall: So that's why things like policy change or environmental change within a certain sector can be a really great way to make sure that what you've done or the work you put in that took a long time and resources and things like that is really, uh, Long lasting. So we'll definitely look to when we work with community partners. 

Ruby Marshall: How can we make this sustainable? So can we implement things like water fountains, which will be there for a long time? Can we implement something in policy like no, uh, sugary drinks in a child care setting? Something that's permanent and then and a major change within the system that will have long lasting effects. 

Ruby Marshall: So how can you infiltrate it? A system and make it, um, long lasting, I think is one of the key things we try to do. Um, and it's a good reminder doing this podcast to. Remember to do that as well when we're looking to make any intervention [00:29:00] is to make it sustainable. 

Tenille Moselen: Yeah, I think policy change is like the golden outcome for all health promotion workers, isn't it? 

Tenille Moselen: Yeah, 

Ruby Marshall: definitely. And I think when we think of policy changes, we think of like a federal or a state level and it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. It could be. a policy change in the municipality government, which is still going to have a long, um, a lot of impact as well, or the work that we do here at BC Children's Hospital, which is visited by over 90, 000 children a year. 

Ruby Marshall: So we can really make an impact there. And one of the more recent projects that we've done is implemented a community garden, which is very heavy and very hard to move. So we see that as a sustainable change in the system that cannot be taken away anytime soon. 

Tenille Moselen: Uh, sounds really lovely. I have to come over and visit and see this community garden. 

Tenille Moselen: Yes, definitely more than welcome. Well, thank you so much, Ruby, for talking with us today. I really hope that your insights are beneficial to our [00:30:00] listeners. Um, the cross country insights have been really eye opening for me. It sounds like there's a lot of shared, um, barriers and enablers in the work that we do and, um, systems thinking. 

Tenille Moselen: Doesn't necessarily change beyond sort of global boundaries. 

Ruby Marshall: Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's such a similar country. That's why we love it over here so much. Canada is very similar to Australia. Um, and if anyone would like to download some of our resources or, um, get in touch with us, you can head to our website, which is live5210. 

Ruby Marshall: ca as well. 

Matt Healey: Thanks again to Ruby for chatting to Tenille. If you want to learn more about their work, check out their website, live5210. ca, that's l i v e 5 dot c a. There's loads of resources and plenty of information about all the work that they're up to. So to finish off [00:31:00] today, uh, and this episode, I wanted to spend a bit of time exploring something that I think gets referenced or talked about a lot, pretty foundational in our work, uh, and that's mental models. 

Matt Healey: Uh, you see mental models often noted or kind of represented, uh, in a lot of frameworks, um, I'll say for instance, the iceberg model or the water of systems change framework, uh, where mental models are kind of at the base or at the sort of bottom tip of these frameworks. And they're kind of treated as these things that are highly, uh, influential or crucial in systems change work, but also very, very difficult to influence. 

Matt Healey: Uh, and I think it's Kind of important, and I know from my perspective, it is to go back to basics when you see some of these terms, because, uh, it is something that's maybe talked about quite a lot, but maybe not defined or articulated, uh, as often as it should be to make it quite easy for people to engage with. 

Matt Healey: So, in short, a mental model is a belief or assumption, uh, or like a taken for granted way of operating that influences how we [00:32:00] think, uh, what we do, how we talk. If you've ever expected something to occur and then it didn't, just like in your day to day life, and you felt particularly frustrated, um, or it felt kind of, uh, annoying. 

Matt Healey: That's actually reality clashing with a mental model. It's you holding on to something, uh, that you expected to recur, occur as a result of, uh, an action. Uh, if you've ever gone to the fridge and opened it and expected to find, uh, milk and the container is in there, but it's empty and felt that sort of twinge of frustration. 

Matt Healey: That's actually reality. That's, that's a mental model kind of clashing with the reality of your experience. You know, I'm oversimplifying into a ridiculous degree there, but in a systems context, mental models are like these underlying drivers that we talk about that kind of govern how people make decisions or behave. 

Matt Healey: Uh, they're kind of like invisible threads, because I think it's important to recognize that, uh, you know, multiple individuals can have different mental models. And so the, these threads kind of get tied together and will produce something. They'll create, uh, you know, a program that [00:33:00] operates in a particular way, uh, or it treats particular problems or opportunities, uh, as one thing versus another. 

Matt Healey: And it's kind of this result of the way in which these things are thought about. And so that's why mental models, uh, these ideas that the. Base of these frameworks, like the iceberg model, uh, or the water of systems change framework. We'll talk about, you know, then having quite a lot of transformative potential, because if we can influence how people, uh, at a base level view the world or interpret something, uh, if you can shift that from one, one thing to another, then you can have quite a, quite a big impact on certain things. 

Matt Healey: So, if we start off from that base of mental models are these beliefs or assumptions or, or perspectives that shape how we understand the world, I would kind of almost treat them as kind of like, um, lenses. They're these things that we use to interpret, uh, the things that are outside of our individual, um, Being our individual self. 

Matt Healey: So we look at the world through these lenses. Um, that [00:34:00] that's a mental model. That's, that's an interpretation of what we mean by that phrase. Uh, and so if every decision that we make is influenced by these things, then really what we're trying to do here, when we talk about wanting to influence them is first actually make them explicit. 

Matt Healey: I think making the time. To sort of do that exploration is actually quite important. So, you know, again, if we go back to this idea of wanting to produce change in the system or to make sense of the system, what we actually need to start with is, well, what are these models? Like, what are the things that people are using to interpret the worlds around them? 

Matt Healey: Uh, and then how do we think about what influencing them might look like? So for example, um, you know, if you've ever collaborated with others on a, on a particular project, say on a health promotion project, you know, you could be with a group of, um, Of three other people, and, you know, you might all be saying, yes, we are working on, you know, improving the health of our community. 

Matt Healey: Um, But actually, if we don't sort of start with a simple point of clarification, what do we mean by [00:35:00] health? What you could end up with is each person taking a slightly different view as to what health means in that context. So one person might view it as purely physical health. Uh, someone else might be seeing it more in terms of say, mental health. 

Matt Healey: Someone else might be talking about like health in terms of the social determinants of health, uh, like housing or income. It could be that all of those things are correct. Um, but what we're starting with in that particular example is actually a misalignment of understandings of what we mean by health in that health promotion project. 

Matt Healey: And that's where the risk kind of comes in. So if these assumptions are kind of just remaining implicit rather than being made explicit, I think, you know, that very simplistic example, um, you know, could lead to misunderstandings or inefficiencies or whatever else. Uh, but you can kind of, uh, almost compound that occurrence, you know, across levels or across sites or communities. 

Matt Healey: And if everyone is kind of going around. Uh, doing things through those particular world views or those particular [00:36:00] lenses, you know, it makes sense that we will often end up in situations where there is this kind of ineffectiveness that occurs because we're making decisions ultimately based on assumptions that others around us interpret things in the same way that we do. 

Matt Healey: Uh, and it's not to say that they interpret them in a radically different way, but even just a slight difference could have potential flow on effects. Uh, And really what we don't want to have happen is interventions that are designed from multiple perspectives that are actually misaligned or, or potentially conflicting because at the end of the day, you know, you're not going to address the sort of real issue or the real root cause of what it is that you're trying to address. 

Matt Healey: So, given all of that, what can we do about it? I think. Probably the solution, which is, you know, it's not groundbreaking is we need to make these models explicit. So again, if I use that iceberg model, uh, kind of description, the mental model, uh, sort of piece of it is always at the very [00:37:00] bottom. And it's always framed as, you know, very far beneath the surface. 

Matt Healey: And so I think what we need to do is actually make it a very intentional effort to bring it up to the surface, um, so that we can see it. Discuss it. We can do something about it. Uh, and when I say make it explicit, I don't necessarily mean that we have to, you know, be very adversarial or confrontational about it. 

Matt Healey: Uh, every person has a mental model. It doesn't matter who you are. Like, that is just how we make sense of the world around us. Uh, but what we're trying to do is start from a place of understanding. And so to understand, we need to elicit those models, those values, those beliefs, those assumptions. And again, this is not potentially new to, to many of you. 

Matt Healey: Uh, different fields talk about testing assumptions or identifying assumptions, uh, and those sorts of things. Again, not new. I just want to give you three simple strategies that you can use to start with. The first is asking open questions about assumptions. So open ended questions I think are, uh, you know, they're not underutilized [00:38:00] by any means, but they're particularly powerful because they're very simple. 

Matt Healey: It's all just about asking the right question in the right way. And it doesn't have to be a question that's asked of a person. So this is something else that's important to keep in mind. Uh, it's a question that we could ask reflectively. It's a question we could ask of ourselves. It's a question that we could ask of a group. 

Matt Healey: So if I go back to that health promotion project example from before, for example, uh, someone could pose to the room or the group, what do we mean by health in the context of this project? Uh, by asking that question, it. Kind of forces a moment of reflection across the room. It asks people to pose an answer, you know, asking open questions generates discussion and discussion can lead to. 

Matt Healey: Clarification to consensus, uh, to shared ownership over decisions. You can, you know, think about it in terms of things like, you know, why do we feel that this particular activity will appeal to this community as opposed to something else, basic questions around [00:39:00] your underlying assumptions. Um, and just calling that out in a way that is very open, uh, can be really useful because it will help people. 

Matt Healey: You know, even just acknowledge, I'm not sure what, like, we've just come up with an idea. We're not really basing it on anything. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad decision or that it's the wrong idea. But what you're doing is acknowledging that you're not sure if it is the right decision. And it means that further processes like evaluation can be set up in such a way as to help you test that assumption. 

Matt Healey: Another option, Or another opportunity, uh, in this space is visualization. So in the previous episode, Tennille described a particular technique known as the pig model, which is where you can provide or present a concept or an idea. And you're basically asking the respondent or the participant to provide their take or their view on the different perspectives that four different Uh, or more for different people or groups would have on that thing. 

Matt Healey: Uh, it doesn't have to be a drawing exercise that we're [00:40:00] talking about here, but in that particular instance, what you're trying to get people to do is to actually project their worldview onto four other types of people. So those projective exercises can be quite valuable because you're actually eliciting from that person, what their perspective is. 

Matt Healey: So what they think others care about, and that will be influenced by their own mental models that they're holding about that particular context or that particular situation. Again, visualization doesn't have to be drawing, you can use other materials, but what we're really trying to do is create representations of the thing that we're talking about because what that does, particularly when you pair it with that open ended questioning, is you're effectively just learning about how other people think. 

Matt Healey: Uh, and that sort of idea of making it visual, again, if we want to think about different, uh, opportunities to use these approaches, can be really beneficial for different, uh, settings or contexts as well. The last one that I want to highlight or point to is metaphors. So I use metaphors a lot, and you've probably picked up on that over the course of these episodes so far.[00:41:00] 

Matt Healey: Uh, I use metaphors a lot because I find metaphors are a great way to communicate. very abstract concepts. The same thing can apply though when you're trying to understand or elicit people's mental models or values or perspectives. And you can do that by taking one of those abstract topics or concepts and ask people to ground it in a metaphor or to describe it through a metaphorical lens. 

Matt Healey: For example, if, if I said to you, if good health was like a perfect holiday, What would it look like to you? Uh, that sounds like a very cheesy kind of question and it kind of is to be honest, but what you're doing is framing your question in such a way that elicits what that person or group or community cares about. 

Matt Healey: So do they come back to you and say, you know, good health to me is sitting in the sun with a book that I enjoy, uh, you know, on a beach somewhere, or it's, you know, jet skiing across the ocean. It kind of doesn't matter what they saying it's. What they're describing to you in terms of the value that they're attaching to good health, [00:42:00] um, and what they're talking about. 

Matt Healey: So those feelings that, that they're kind of, uh, communicating to you through that. So metaphors are really good because they ground abstract concepts. Uh, and so that can be useful. And that's why we use things like, you know, the iceberg model, for instance, like we are describing something that we can attach certain types of meaning to. 

Matt Healey: We use those metaphors because it helps communicate a complex concept. And so using that, when we're trying to elicit. How people understand something is equally of benefit for that, for that exact reason. So, if those are particular ways that we can use to understand models, probably one thing that you might be thinking about now is, well, yes, this is good for understanding, you know, very nuanced perspectives from different people. 

Matt Healey: Um, But, you know, how do I maybe more explicitly switch between some of those models? So if I am, you know, a particularly reflective practitioner and I want to actually explicitly switch between different ways of thinking about things, how do we, how can we start to think [00:43:00] about doing that? Uh, taking my metaphor approach here for a second, I would think about this in terms of like swapping between different pairs of glasses or sunglasses. 

Matt Healey: Different mental models can almost have like a different purpose. We can swap them out for different contexts. Uh, if you've ever heard of, um, De Bono's Six Thinking Hats, it's kind of a similar idea. You are applying a different way of thinking about something to a particular context to give you, uh, uh, almost a way of, you know, Coming to, to a resolution of something or to understanding something or to comprehend something, um, like as some basic examples, I'll give you a few just to, to help make this point kind of clear the act of thinking systemically. 

Matt Healey: So this whole podcast, which is around systems, thinking complexity, systems, thinking itself is almost. Like a mental model, because what we are talking about is we are trying to view something within a wider context and circumstance. So we're trying to take something like health and we're trying to [00:44:00] place it within a broader context Um so that it isn't just about you know, primary health in terms of say medical care But we're actually trying to place it within, you know Uh broader systems of things like economic security or social networks So we are looking at something through a particular lens so that we can understand it From a particular, yeah, particular perspective, uh, conversely, uh, and I use this way of description in a previous episode, systematic or sort of more mechanistic ways of thinking are really about focusing in on that individual component. 

Matt Healey: So we are not contextualizing it within a broader system. But instead, we're trying to break things down into parts, and then we're trying to analyze it in isolation. And I think one thing to call out at this stage is that this isn't somehow lesser than or worse than systems thinking or thinking systemically. 

Matt Healey: Um, the, the goal of systematic ways of thinking are good for the purposes in which [00:45:00] they fit. Uh, what we're trying to avoid is what I alluded to earlier, that misalignment between Uh, where we might want to use them. So, for instance, vaccine development, I think mechanistic ways of thinking are very crucial because we're trying to understand how things work, uh, in a particular way at a particular point in time. 

Matt Healey: Uh, you could also think of something, uh, like Occam's Razor. Uh, this is another kind of mental model where, you know, the simplest explanation is often the right one. You could look at an activity, uh, and maybe not many people showed up, You might start by thinking to yourself, well, was it actually scheduled at the right time or right place to be convenient for the people that we wanted to reach. 

Matt Healey: Um, those are just really basic examples and there are obviously many more that are out there. Really what we're trying to do here, try to just make clear that Mental models are values, beliefs, or assumptions that we either hold as individuals or groups or communities or societies. Uh, and they influence decisions that are made and the [00:46:00] behaviors, um, that occur. 

Matt Healey: And, you know, if we can make those mental models, those values, those assumptions, or beliefs explicit, and acknowledge the role that they're playing in the behaviors that occur, then we can, you know, align efforts, we can find middle grounds when we're collaborating, uh, when we need to, and ultimately keep making progress. 

Matt Healey: So, you know, I'd encourage you after today to start thinking a bit reflectively about, you know, can you use or find opportunities to use techniques like open questions or to practice visualizing things? Um, or, you know, metaphors, try using metaphors when you're trying to talk about some of these concepts, uh, that are a bit more abstract. 

Matt Healey: Uh, and if we can start to do that, I think we can really, you know, Uh, start to make sure that our work is cohesive, adaptive, uh, and ultimately more impactful. 

Tenille Moselen: The System Sandbox is a first person consulting production and creation, a part of our work with VicHealth on their local government partnership capacity [00:47:00] support program. 

Tenille Moselen: That's it for today's episode of The System Sandbox. Thanks for tuning in. I'm Tenille and with me was Matt. Until next time.